[Council] XMPP Council Minutes 2018-03-07

[Dave Cridland]

A short reminder on Council voting:

Council can vote on anything - while a Call For Experience is not a
"Status Change" and thus does not require a vote, Council can still
vote to ask the Editor to do one. Council members vote either +1 or 0
(the latter is often written signed, and may indicate a leaning), or
may veto with -1. A single veto causes the motion to fail; otherwise a
majority of the Council must vote +1 for the motion to pass.

1) Roll Call

All present, but as Georg arrived Dave had to leave unexpectedly, thus
Kev actually chaired. [Speaking personally, many thanks to Kev for
taking on this monster meeting at no notice]

[ 2) Elided since the lack of a minute-taker was already noted ]

3) CFE for XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html

Kev noted the ground rules: Each of these votes has two parts - first
whether to Call For Experience before moving to Final, the second to
instead deprecate it. This one is for CFE with the intention to later
move to Final. Georg queried if this were in use anywhere and noted a
number of XEPs which reference it; Kev didn't think it was in use
anywhere in practise.

Daniel, Georg, Kev all -1 for CFE, Sam +0

4) Deprecate XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html

Daniel, Georg, Kev all +1 for Deprecate, Sam +0

5) CFE for XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html

Kev felt this was premature while the ongoing 49/223 mismatch quesiton
isn't answered - Georg agreed this was the elephant in the room. Sam
felt that a CFE might draw out more feedback. Georg agreed that a CFE,
with an additional note about '49, might do the trick.

Georg, Daniel, Sam +1 for CFE, Kev 0.

6) Deprecate XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html

All present -1.

Kev noted at this point that he would assume anyone +1 for a CFE would
be -1 on the Deprecate, to which Georg agreed and nobody dissented.

7) CFE for XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html

Georg and Kev both raised the current MAM discussion, and felt that we
should resolve that prior to a CFE.

Georg, Kev -1, Sam Daniel +1

8) Deprecate XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html

All present -1

** Stalemate **

9) CFE for XEP-0066: Out of Band Data
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html

Daniel asked what this was actually used for, and Georg replied it was
used for inline images in conversations, and suggested it might be
harvested for good parts. Kev opined that the CFE might be interesting
on this one.

All present +1

10) Deprecate XEP-0066: Out of Band Data

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html

All present -1

11) CFE for XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html

Kev suggested that a CFE might make it obvious whether deprecation was
the right option.

Sam -1, Georg, Kev, Daniel +1

12) Deprecate XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html

Georg, Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +1

** Stalemate **

13) CFE for XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

Kev +1, Daniel, Georg, +0, Sam -0

(Some question, here, over voting practises regarding CFE - note above
that the Council may vote on anything).

14) Deprecate XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

Kev felt that '79 needed some discussion in the community first, even
if this were not a formal CFE.

Daniel, Georg, and Kev -1, Sam +1.

15) CFE for XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html

All present +1

16) Deprecate XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html

All present -1

17) CFE for XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html

Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

18) Deprecate XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html

Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +1

19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html

Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

20) Deprecate XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html

Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +0

21) CFE for XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html

Georg said he was in favour of deprecation, but only after some discussion.

Daniel, Georg, Kev +1, Sam -0

22) Deprecate XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html

Daniel, Georg, Kev -1, Sam +0

23) CFE for XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html

Sam noted he thought he had written an implementation of this for
HipChat (but it may have been gzip). Georg noted the insecurities
around compression if it is not applied very cautiously.

Daniel, Kev, Sam +1
Georg -0

24) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html

Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +0, Georg +1

(Dave rejoined here)

25) XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection #600
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600

Kev queried the feature string used, Georg suggested it was
"muc_stable_id" to match legacy cases in the XEP, but Kev thought
existing cases used the old URL form. Kev and Georg agreed to resolve
properly after the meeting.

All present +1

26) XEP-0153: Clarify encoding of update hash #593
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593

All present +1

27) Date of next meeting

Same time next week: Wednesday 14th March, 1600 UTC

28) AOB?

Sam asked that anything we voted on today and ended up with no
consensus to advance or deprecate be added to the agenda for next
meeting. Kev suggested these could be discussed on the list, and Dave
said he would highlight these in the minutes (in these minutes, marked
"Stalemate")

29) Kev hung the navel.

[Dave Cridland]

Post by Dave Cridland
3) CFE for XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
Kev noted the ground rules: Each of these votes has two parts - first
whether to Call For Experience before moving to Final, the second to
instead deprecate it. This one is for CFE with the intention to later
move to Final. Georg queried if this were in use anywhere and noted a
number of XEPs which reference it; Kev didn't think it was in use
anywhere in practise.
Daniel, Georg, Kev all -1 for CFE, Sam +0

-0

Post by Dave Cridland
4) Deprecate XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
Daniel, Georg, Kev all +1 for Deprecate, Sam +0

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
5) CFE for XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
Kev felt this was premature while the ongoing 49/223 mismatch quesiton
isn't answered - Georg agreed this was the elephant in the room. Sam
felt that a CFE might draw out more feedback. Georg agreed that a CFE,
with an additional note about '49, might do the trick.
Georg, Daniel, Sam +1 for CFE, Kev 0.

I agree that a CFE might draw out comments, but I'm uneasy about a CFE
when I believe there'll be changes required.

-0

Post by Dave Cridland
6) Deprecate XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
All present -1.
Kev noted at this point that he would assume anyone +1 for a CFE would
be -1 on the Deprecate, to which Georg agreed and nobody dissented.

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
7) CFE for XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
Georg and Kev both raised the current MAM discussion, and felt that we
should resolve that prior to a CFE.
Georg, Kev -1, Sam Daniel +1

RSM is already used in a number of other cases, like within Pubsub -
whether or not it's used in MAM seems somewhat moot.

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
8) Deprecate XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
All present -1
** Stalemate **

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
9) CFE for XEP-0066: Out of Band Data
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
Daniel asked what this was actually used for, and Georg replied it was
used for inline images in conversations, and suggested it might be
harvested for good parts. Kev opined that the CFE might be interesting
on this one.
All present +1

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
10) Deprecate XEP-0066: Out of Band Data
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
All present -1

0

Post by Dave Cridland
11) CFE for XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
Kev suggested that a CFE might make it obvious whether deprecation was
the right option.
Sam -1, Georg, Kev, Daniel +1

This feels like a deprecation case. I don't know why anyone would want
to do SOAP, let alone over XMPP.

-0

Post by Dave Cridland
12) Deprecate XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +1

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
** Stalemate **
13) CFE for XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
Kev +1, Daniel, Georg, +0, Sam -0

I think AMP is a complex and undesirable technology, but I'll avoid
vetoing a CFE.

-0

Post by Dave Cridland
(Some question, here, over voting practises regarding CFE - note above
that the Council may vote on anything).
14) Deprecate XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
Kev felt that '79 needed some discussion in the community first, even
if this were not a formal CFE.
Daniel, Georg, and Kev -1, Sam +1.

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
15) CFE for XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html
All present +1

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
16) Deprecate XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html
All present -1

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
17) CFE for XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

I know of places this is actively used, and moreover I know of "forms"
cases where validation would be useful.

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
18) Deprecate XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html
Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +1

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

I really dislike this spec, but I think it's used in pubsub isn't it?

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
20) Deprecate XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +0

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
21) CFE for XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html
Georg said he was in favour of deprecation, but only after some discussion.
Daniel, Georg, Kev +1, Sam -0

As above; I've seen this used in the wild.

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
22) Deprecate XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html
Daniel, Georg, Kev -1, Sam +0

-1

Post by Dave Cridland
23) CFE for XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
Sam noted he thought he had written an implementation of this for
HipChat (but it may have been gzip). Georg noted the insecurities
around compression if it is not applied very cautiously.
Daniel, Kev, Sam +1
Georg -0

I don't feel this has gained any real traction - I think for those
cases where people want stream compression, I'd be suggesting "plain"
'138, not this.

-0

Post by Dave Cridland
24) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +0, Georg +1

+1

Post by Dave Cridland
(Dave rejoined here)
25) XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection #600
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600
Kev queried the feature string used, Georg suggested it was
"muc_stable_id" to match legacy cases in the XEP, but Kev thought
existing cases used the old URL form. Kev and Georg agreed to resolve
properly after the meeting.
All present +1
26) XEP-0153: Clarify encoding of update hash #593
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593
All present +1
27) Date of next meeting
Same time next week: Wednesday 14th March, 1600 UTC
28) AOB?
Sam asked that anything we voted on today and ended up with no
consensus to advance or deprecate be added to the agenda for next
meeting. Kev suggested these could be discussed on the list, and Dave
said he would highlight these in the minutes (in these minutes, marked
"Stalemate")
29) Kev hung the navel.

[Florian Schmaus]

Post by Dave Cridland

Post by Dave Cridland
19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

I really dislike this spec, but I think it's used in pubsub isn't it?
+1

Are you +1 because it is used, and would you otherwise vote -1? Is "it
is used somewhere" really an argument to not deprecate a spec? If so, we
possibly need a new XEP state "discouraged by used".

- Florian

[Dave Cridland]

Post by Florian Schmaus

Post by Dave Cridland

Post by Dave Cridland
19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0

I really dislike this spec, but I think it's used in pubsub isn't it?
+1

Are you +1 because it is used, and would you otherwise vote -1? Is "it
is used somewhere" really an argument to not deprecate a spec? If so, we
possibly need a new XEP state "discouraged by used".

If a Draft specification says "MUST do XYZ", and XYZ claims it's
deprecated, we're saying that part of a Draft spec is deprecated.

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-delete-success-subid

Something's got to be wrong there.

The reason I dislike SHIM is because it's a generic container for
data, and that's basically what XML is itself. But its design is to
act as a container for RFC 5322 header fields, which is actually a
worthy goal - albeit one we've (possibly) never used it for in
practise.

Dave.

[Dave Cridland]

As an experiment, the actions from this meeting are at
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/601

Post by Dave Cridland
Council can vote on anything - while a Call For Experience is not a
"Status Change" and thus does not require a vote, Council can still
vote to ask the Editor to do one. Council members vote either +1 or 0
(the latter is often written signed, and may indicate a leaning), or
may veto with -1. A single veto causes the motion to fail; otherwise a
majority of the Council must vote +1 for the motion to pass.
1) Roll Call
All present, but as Georg arrived Dave had to leave unexpectedly, thus
Kev actually chaired. [Speaking personally, many thanks to Kev for
taking on this monster meeting at no notice]
[ 2) Elided since the lack of a minute-taker was already noted ]
3) CFE for XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
Kev noted the ground rules: Each of these votes has two parts - first
whether to Call For Experience before moving to Final, the second to
instead deprecate it. This one is for CFE with the intention to later
move to Final. Georg queried if this were in use anywhere and noted a
number of XEPs which reference it; Kev didn't think it was in use
anywhere in practise.
Daniel, Georg, Kev all -1 for CFE, Sam +0
4) Deprecate XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
Daniel, Georg, Kev all +1 for Deprecate, Sam +0
5) CFE for XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
Kev felt this was premature while the ongoing 49/223 mismatch quesiton
isn't answered - Georg agreed this was the elephant in the room. Sam
felt that a CFE might draw out more feedback. Georg agreed that a CFE,
with an additional note about '49, might do the trick.
Georg, Daniel, Sam +1 for CFE, Kev 0.
6) Deprecate XEP-0048: Bookmarks
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
All present -1.
Kev noted at this point that he would assume anyone +1 for a CFE would
be -1 on the Deprecate, to which Georg agreed and nobody dissented.
7) CFE for XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
Georg and Kev both raised the current MAM discussion, and felt that we
should resolve that prior to a CFE.
Georg, Kev -1, Sam Daniel +1
8) Deprecate XEP-0059: Result Set Management
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
All present -1
** Stalemate **
9) CFE for XEP-0066: Out of Band Data
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
Daniel asked what this was actually used for, and Georg replied it was
used for inline images in conversations, and suggested it might be
harvested for good parts. Kev opined that the CFE might be interesting
on this one.
All present +1
10) Deprecate XEP-0066: Out of Band Data
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
All present -1
11) CFE for XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
Kev suggested that a CFE might make it obvious whether deprecation was
the right option.
Sam -1, Georg, Kev, Daniel +1
12) Deprecate XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +1
** Stalemate **
13) CFE for XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
Kev +1, Daniel, Georg, +0, Sam -0
(Some question, here, over voting practises regarding CFE - note above
that the Council may vote on anything).
14) Deprecate XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
Kev felt that '79 needed some discussion in the community first, even
if this were not a formal CFE.
Daniel, Georg, and Kev -1, Sam +1.
15) CFE for XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html
All present +1
16) Deprecate XEP-0092: Software Version
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html
All present -1
17) CFE for XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0
18) Deprecate XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html
Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +1
19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Georg, Daniel, Kev +1, Sam +0
20) Deprecate XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
Kev, Daniel, Georg -1, Sam +0
21) CFE for XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html
Georg said he was in favour of deprecation, but only after some discussion.
Daniel, Georg, Kev +1, Sam -0
22) Deprecate XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html
Daniel, Georg, Kev -1, Sam +0
23) CFE for XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
Sam noted he thought he had written an implementation of this for
HipChat (but it may have been gzip). Georg noted the insecurities
around compression if it is not applied very cautiously.
Daniel, Kev, Sam +1
Georg -0
24) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
Daniel, Kev -1, Sam +0, Georg +1
(Dave rejoined here)
25) XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection #600
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600
Kev queried the feature string used, Georg suggested it was
"muc_stable_id" to match legacy cases in the XEP, but Kev thought
existing cases used the old URL form. Kev and Georg agreed to resolve
properly after the meeting.
All present +1
26) XEP-0153: Clarify encoding of update hash #593
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593
All present +1
27) Date of next meeting
Same time next week: Wednesday 14th March, 1600 UTC
28) AOB?
Sam asked that anything we voted on today and ended up with no
consensus to advance or deprecate be added to the agenda for next
meeting. Kev suggested these could be discussed on the list, and Dave
said he would highlight these in the minutes (in these minutes, marked
"Stalemate")
29) Kev hung the navel.